Huh. I never would have even thought to think about this before. This is interesting!
It strikes me, outside of some notable examples, evangelicalism really does tend to split between the "charismatic" and the "reasoned." They're buffered from each other and not integrated. We make them to be that way, too. Piper tried with his "serious joy" and making a value of Bethlehem to be reformed in soteriology but charasmatic in practice, it just never happened because it really couldn't there, as much as they believed it lol.
For the Catholic and Orthodox, their mysterious experiences aren't just experiences, they're grounded in a rich history of theology. The experience and theology have been integrated, with, as you quoted from Augustine (and is a quote that's been greatly helping me recently) "I believe in order to understand."
Yet, as I say that, it strikes me that we have Edwards and the Wesley brothers with their rich theology which grounded and gave life to their experience of our God. Gavin Ortlund did a video recently on them. Maybe evangelicalism would be able to strengthen by learning from its forebears. These are who Keller learned from, and while not exactly "charismatic," the life of Jesus animated his life and his reason in profoundly visible ways. His reason took a cruciform shape, to use evangelical terminology.
With what you said, I wonder how much of those converting to Catholicism and Orthodoxy are going to have their reasoning changed, not just bordered. I think a good aspect of the reasoning evangelicalism has done is try to figure out how to submit everything to Christ, even the way we think, which does require rethinking from the ground up.
One thing I would find interesting to compare between those who experience God and move to a high church, like Dreher, and those who experience God and go evangelical is what they are seeing as the end of that experience. It strikes me that, and I may be wrong on this as this is just gut reaction from all the people I've seen moving toward Orthodoxy and Catholicism, is the goal is to re-enchant the world. To effectively undo the enlightenment, but with the real God, not mysticism or universalism. But for the evangelical, it's to move toward a relationship with the living God through Jesus, not reenchantment. That happens as a byproduct. The former's reason is already alive and has looked down the dark alleyways of modern emptiness, found it terrifying, and so run to the God who created reason and can give it bounds and true life. The heart will have to follow and learn to come alive in a relationship with the living God. In the latter, there's a gaping hole in the heart and reason will have to come alive to know God for more than just what he gave you in your moment of need.
Profound explanation. One might say that some "theological triage" and humility in the face of mystery could really come in handy here.
*Cue the Gavin Ortlund and Alister McGrath montage*
Enjoyed this.
Huh. I never would have even thought to think about this before. This is interesting!
It strikes me, outside of some notable examples, evangelicalism really does tend to split between the "charismatic" and the "reasoned." They're buffered from each other and not integrated. We make them to be that way, too. Piper tried with his "serious joy" and making a value of Bethlehem to be reformed in soteriology but charasmatic in practice, it just never happened because it really couldn't there, as much as they believed it lol.
For the Catholic and Orthodox, their mysterious experiences aren't just experiences, they're grounded in a rich history of theology. The experience and theology have been integrated, with, as you quoted from Augustine (and is a quote that's been greatly helping me recently) "I believe in order to understand."
Yet, as I say that, it strikes me that we have Edwards and the Wesley brothers with their rich theology which grounded and gave life to their experience of our God. Gavin Ortlund did a video recently on them. Maybe evangelicalism would be able to strengthen by learning from its forebears. These are who Keller learned from, and while not exactly "charismatic," the life of Jesus animated his life and his reason in profoundly visible ways. His reason took a cruciform shape, to use evangelical terminology.
With what you said, I wonder how much of those converting to Catholicism and Orthodoxy are going to have their reasoning changed, not just bordered. I think a good aspect of the reasoning evangelicalism has done is try to figure out how to submit everything to Christ, even the way we think, which does require rethinking from the ground up.
One thing I would find interesting to compare between those who experience God and move to a high church, like Dreher, and those who experience God and go evangelical is what they are seeing as the end of that experience. It strikes me that, and I may be wrong on this as this is just gut reaction from all the people I've seen moving toward Orthodoxy and Catholicism, is the goal is to re-enchant the world. To effectively undo the enlightenment, but with the real God, not mysticism or universalism. But for the evangelical, it's to move toward a relationship with the living God through Jesus, not reenchantment. That happens as a byproduct. The former's reason is already alive and has looked down the dark alleyways of modern emptiness, found it terrifying, and so run to the God who created reason and can give it bounds and true life. The heart will have to follow and learn to come alive in a relationship with the living God. In the latter, there's a gaping hole in the heart and reason will have to come alive to know God for more than just what he gave you in your moment of need.
I'm gonna keep thinking on what you said!